I get what you’re saying but by this logic, no subject in school should be mandatory
I hated math class because it was hard for me but I still had to do it. I didn’t enjoy or want it but I did it.
It’s about developing a basic skill.
In my province, second language education is mandatory - we have to take French from grades 4-9 and the grade 9 course is a requirement to graduate high school. Even if you don’t take it past grade 9, the five mandatory years are enough for a basic understanding of the language.
The reason we do this is because French is one of Canada’s official languages and it was implemented as a way of preserving the presence of the French language in the country. This preservation is the same reason why product packaging in Canada is in both English and French.
Students either loved it or hated it but after grade 9, anyone who didn’t want to continue with it, stopped and those who wanted to, continued to take it. It’s the same with any other course in high school. You take it when it’s mandatory and then when it becomes a choice, you can either keep going with it or stop. I didn’t take any sciences past when I had to because science wasn’t my thing. My brother loved science and so he kept taking it. Same with French. I took French all four years of high school because I enjoyed it, my brother stopped after grade 9 because it wasn’t his thing.
True but most subjects in my opinion should be electives. Especially the kind of maths that is made mandatory, b*llshit like quadratic equations never really comes up in life unlike the basic maths like addition etc. Most people have easy access to a calculator anyway, except obvious cases where people don’t have internet access, phones or an old fashioned calculator. So like…yeah I don’t think school maths should be mandatory, at least not the way it is now.
School also shouldn’t be about rail roading you into a job and loading you with skills you may or may not use. It should seak to enrich your mind, introduce you to culture and allow you to choose what you want to study from a far earlier point. If you start noticing maths coming into your life that you’re struggling with, school should be there to aid you.
Learning a language is not a “basic skill” there is nothing basic about learning languages.
I’m not being funny here but most of the evidence I’m seeing here is anecdotal, I’m aware of the fact Canada has French/English and I’m aware of the multitude of schools all over the world that have language learning as a mandatory subject until a certain age.
I myself had to do mandatory French classes until year 9, then did the topic at GCSE which was not my choice, it was due to pressure from a parent which we don’t need to get into. Against my will I had to learn the “basics” of a language I had no interest in.
So no, I absolutely do not think that my experience is universal and I do not think yours is either.
I’m glad some people like it but if some people strongly dislike it then why should they have to do it? Especially if they don’t even get to choose the language they learn.
I understand there are situations that necessitate learning another language but if somebody isn’t in that situation then they shouldn’t have to act like they are.
oh shoot i forgot to reply here
sorry this may be a lil long
honestly this may be my main issue with why i don’t think it should be compulsory
as long as the system continues to be… as messy as it it… i can’t imagine how language learning could be enforced without it having a likely negative impact
that said, i think encouraging people to be around different languages since young could be a possible alternative that could have the same positive results (maybe it could be like a government program or something?)
yeah i agree with this, i may be going too into it with this but in this class i’m taking (colonial ethnography) we have discussed about how violent it is to try to narrate others and speak for them
instead, what should be done is listening to them and amplifying their voices, something that cannot be done if we refuse to learn to listen
language learning plays a key part here, that way we can listen to them, to what they’re really saying, and we can amplify it by trying to translate it into our own and other languages
so yeah i completely agree, language learning is essential to learn to listen and understand Others
i fully understand where you’re coming from but i worry that some of this ignorance may be on purpose, which is… something that would not be fixed by enforcing them to learn, not when there’s people who are willingly ignorant and prefer to remain in that state
in these cases, enforcing a second language to study would not solve it, but rather make people be firmer in possibly hateful attitudes
yeah i agree 100%
LMAO SAME
usted (formal you) my beloved
this is a really great point
it would be very helpful to have a way to achieve this (but again, i don’t know how it could be enforced without it backfiring)
can you elaborate more on this?
yeah this is what worries me too
but tbh i think a special week may be too little time for one to develop an interest in things
so, like i said above, i think a way to ensure there’s more constant interaction with different languages/cultures could be a better option
i’m… not so sure about this
a lot of cultural phenomena is in the words themselves, so a lack of understanding of the language may lead to not being able to really understand some concepts or aspects of the culture (and vice versa)
i recall a discussion i had here a while ago, where @katabasis and i were trying to explain the meaning of “Hermoso” to @Ouijaloveletters , and why the translation to english they’d brought up was doing a huge disservice to the narrative and colombian culture, the whole story in question gets lost in translation simply because the translator failed to really grasp and/or convey what “Hermoso” is
not understanding the language and how it’s used does pose a barrier to truly understand the culture, even if it’s just one word
they may be able to understand it in theory, but i do think that it’s good for them to have some empirical knowledge on this too, as it’s something about existing as a human person
i wouldn’t say “classes for years” and necessary for reaching this understanding, just them trying to do it once would be enough for it
yeah understandable
That’s true, though i think An was talking about his own experience as a second/third/etc language speaker when faced with monolinguals
so i think that applies there
Cati, i hope you don’t mind me asking (and feel free to ignore this) but what benefits do you think you got out of that class? (this is a genuine question, i’m curious about it bc i’m a math nerd so i can see the benefits for myself but i’m curious about the other side of the coin)
yeah agreed, that’s it
ooooh interesting
i think the preservation part is very important here tbh
The way i see it ( ← nerd) it’s less about the formulas we have to learn or whatever, and more about developing a certain type of skillset
logical reasoning, problem solving, understanding the why of some things, spatial awareness (geometry), alternative solutions, simplifying things, etc
ofc, the way these are taught nowadays are not it, and if it were up to me i would completely reform the education system, but these are all skills one gets from maths and sciences classes, even if the tasks themselves don’t seem like it
yeah i 1000% agree with this part
can you explain how it’s not? (again, this is a genuine question)
and well, just like with the maths thing, it’s less about the subject itself and more about the skills one can get from it
it’s about learning how to communicate, how language works, how other people see the world, about concepts that may not exist in our own languages and other cultures, it’s not just about the language
i am very sorry that you had to, i agree that that’s not how things should be
I find this view pretty elitist and gatekeepy, if you’re studying a culture then sure language is probably gonna come into it and you should probably ensure you understand the meaning of any words you come across, but again this is if you’re studying a culture.
Allow me to flip some things, some people come to the UK for varying reasons, they may not understand or be good at English and people use this to gatekeep them which is bad you can absolutely like being in a country and the culture within a country without knowing the intracies of the language. I want more accessible technology to help with reliable translations so that people aren’t completely stuck if they’re seriously struggling to learn.
Which is why I said a week in the school year would be enough, we had them, it was called a challenge week where you get introduced to a variety of stuff. My school didn’t offer more languages than French and Spanish unfortunately. But I do think those kinds of things are fun and making people fully aware that language learning is an option and showing the potential benefits is how you get the people who want to do it, to do it.
Hey look I wish I could agree with you because the concept that maths taught me any of that is a fun one. But it didn’t. I only remember some very basic things, I have dyscalculia as do a fair amount of others, I was diagnosed in primary school yet they still tried to make me do the higher difficulty maths. This is an example of ableism as far as I’m concerned, just as it would be ableism to have mandatory classes on language when not everybody can easily pick up what’s being taught for a variety of reasons. They may also have conditions that lead to them not even being able to speak which is part of the language learning process, in French GCSE there’s even a spoken test.
There’s even stuff like Aphasia but I don’t know enough about those conditions to speak more.
I’ve wrote an essay before on the topic of whether or not everybody should speak one global language, the answer was no for a multitude of reasons but the biggest was that no matter what, people would always be excluded.
Just like with these classes, some people would struggle far more than others which isn’t fair.
Just like people struggle with core topics like maths and english (english is our writing and literature topic I’m aware it has different names elsewhere). It’s obvious that there’s a gigantic issue in how this stuff is taught and you can bet all the money in the world that I’m coming for that too. It’s not just language learning.
Btw this is also my answer for why it’s not basic, some may not find it difficult to study/learn languages but many do, many do not find it basic.
If it’s not just about the language then why do you need the language you can learn about a culture, words that a culture uses and get a base level understanding of the culture without learning and studying the language by itself. If you choose to learn more than that basic understanding that’s rad!
I understand you saying “not just about language” implies that language is still a necessity, which sure, there are examples where language comes into cultural learning as you’ve pointed out. When it does come up, sure it should be taught.
But this does not negate the fact that if people don’t want to learn more, they shouldn’t have to. They should be allowed to dedicate that part of the brain to something they actually want to learn.
i think you’re misunderstanding my point here
i never said one has to know the language and its intrincacies to “like being in a country and the culture within a country” i said:
which is completely different
sure, one can participate in and like a country/culture without knowing the language, but not knowing the language leads to not fully understanding and grasping it
asking for foreigners to completely master the national tongue of whatever country they’re visiting is pretty entitled and ridiculous, but that’s not what i’m arguing against here, so your example of UK people asking others to be good at english doesn’t really apply
again, i don’t think a week would be enough, much less when it has to do with school
but yeah an option like this could be helpful
i’m sorry it didn’t
i’m talking from what i remember from maths syllabi though, so technically speaking that is pretty much the goal (and why it’s necessary) for teaching maths in school
I am very sorry, you (and many others) deserved way better than what schools have provided
if i may share a bit of my own personal experience with maths:
i was in a specialised maths class that mixed students from seventh grade to senior year, and what i mentioned earlier was what we were taught
and well when i changed schools and was no longer in that math class i began struggling with how it was taught in my new school
to the point my teacher kicked me of the classroom for 1/3 of a year because yeah her teaching method was not for me
but this is a failure of the school system, not of the subject
your school failing to accommodate to your dyscalculia is just the same, a failure in the system
and like i said earlier:
but the fault is in the system rather than in what’s being taught
my mum has lamented the lack of a school that would adapt to my special needs since i began school, so please understand that the system has failed me too
there needs to be a better education system, one that accommodates to students’ particular needs and that focuses on giving us necessary skills rather than teaching us how to solve tests
and in a hopeful note? there are newish possibilities for alternative methods of teaching, iirc Montessori schools are one of those
so there can be a change for the best
so with all that
I would argue that what’s ableist is not the teaching a thing in itself, not even enforcing it
but the way it’s taught and the lack of accommodations are what’s ableist
i think you’re conflating “basic” with “easy” here, which… are not the same
i agree, language learning is not always easy (i had literal nightmares about declension when studying Greek lmao)
but knowing how to learn to communicate is a pretty basic skill, in my opinion
which, again, is what’s behind teaching languages
i explained above why trying to study a culture without knowing its language will end up being lacking, i don’t think i have to repeat myself, do i?
this… is a very iffy point
sometimes we have to learn some things despite not wanting to
i don’t think many people find learning about slavery a pleasant thing or about WWII and the atrocities it came with
but it’s a part of human history and we need to know about these in order to avoid similar (or even the same) tragedies happening again
or, for a more personal example
i don’t want to learn about how my people were used, demonised, seen as things, how we were made into foreigners in our homelands
but it’s important to know about that to understand why there are indigenous tribes protesting in our capital this year
and it’s important to me to know about this because i want what’s best for my country and my people
so despite me not wanting to, i still have to at least try to understand and learn a little bit on the topic
i agree, language is related to history and culture. I mean, look at the example of “the moon is beautiful” in Japanese. Now thanks to tiktok it’s very well-known way of saying I love you. But it may be lost on someone who doesn’t understand the cultural impact or origin from the Meji period writer Natsume Soseki.
We talked about this in AP Spanish as well on how things don’t translate well. We were discussing about how “drinking the kool-aid” is a very american thing from a cult here and references a significant historical event. If you try translating that into Spanish, it will not work because they will probably not get it unless you explain it.
That’s why there are so many translations of the Illiad, it has to be updated because past translations have lead to a misunderstanding of it and therefore a misunderstanding of the culture and context.
You’re correct. A lot of people like to hate on math (me included) but the reason they teach us math in the United States is to develop logical analysis and reasoning. You will never need to graph a cartoid graph (a literal MICROPHONE graph) or use the quadratic equation unless you go into a hard STEM field, but it allows your brain to form connections and better logical reasoning.
That’s not the argument though, no one will know everything of a language. Not understanding the language results in not understanding the culture. Culture is expressed through language because language is a form of communication.
I remeber having the discussion with @Cam how many East Asian languages essentially degrade themselves when referring themselves in the language, showing how being humble is a key value of the culture. Another example is the English and German phenomena of using please with commands. I remember learning this when researching latin, latin really didn’t have a form of please equivalent to English and German. But this idea of associating please with command evolved from the Baroque period and courtly language in order to not give the idea of commanding other person and give some sense of self-autonomy. It’s not that you must learn the language to learn the culture but not understanding aspects of the language gives way to shallow understanding of the culture. This is why people psychologically think different in different languages, their values shift because their language shifts.
complete mastery of a language is not required but if you don’t have a grasp of the language you will not understand as much as if you would.
I agree, basic is not easy. My experience with Spanish an “easy” language has been very rocky. It’s been so many years and I still struggle to speak comfortably, and I have to speak for a good moment before I can become more fluid in it. I cannot switch insantly into it like some others, I have to slowly exit out of English. But the goal isn’t really perfecrtion, it’s communication. I’m trying to communicate with others and across cultures.
(just nitpicking because I’m very passionate about the brain) I mean I’m no neuroscientist but the part of the brain that controls language and expression solely controls language or expression. (Wernicke/Broca’s area) It’s sole purpose is language so it’s not going to do a different task because someone isn’t language learning. in addition, we don’t have physical memory limit for the brain as far as we know so it’s not taking up valuable space either lol I mean yes there must be a limit but it’s such a large capacity you are quite literally never going to reach it within your lifespan. And what causes alzheimers and such is due abnormal levels of neurotransmitters as well. So if you don’t learn a language you’re fine and if you do, it’s not taking up any valuable brain space.
The English “please” is short for “if you please,” “if it pleases you to do this” — it is the same in most European languages (French si il vous plait, Spanish por favor). Its literal meaning is “you are under no obligation to do this.” “Hand me the salt. Not that I am saying that you have to!” This is not true; there is a social obligation, and it would be almost impossible not to comply. But etiquette largely consists of the exchange of polite fictions (to use less polite language, lies). When you ask someone to pass the salt, you are also giving them an order; by attaching the word “please,” you are saying that it is not an order. But, in fact, it is.
The habit of always saying “please” and “thank you” first began to take hold during the commercial revolution of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries — among those very middle classes who were largely responsible for it. It is the language of bureaus, shops, and offices, and over the course of the last five hundred years it has spread across the world along with them. It is also merely one token of a much larger philosophy, a set of assumptions of what humans are and what they owe one another, that have by now become so deeply ingrained that we cannot see them.
Among good friends, the contrasts between the politesse of what you do and the bluntness of what you say can seem baffling. At a restaurant with friends, or eyeing the table of a family, a delicate choreography will have one person carefully select a few choice morsels from the common bowl and place them on a neighbor’s plate. It is a small, perfect gesture. Another person will pour tea or beer for everyone else before even considering pouring his own. And then, another will announce “gěi wǒ yán!”, literally, “Give me salt!” with no sign of a please or thank you involved. I’m always taken a little aback and bite my tongue to stifle a “Say please!” after so many years of training children in Western table manners.
My Chinese friends say they notice that Westerners use lots of please’s (qǐng) and thank you’s, (xièxie) when speaking Chinese. And actually, they say, we use way too many of them for Chinese taste. A Chinese linguist, Kaidi Zhan, says that using a please as in “please pass the salt” actually has the opposite effect of politeness here in China. The Chinese way of being polite to each other with words is to shorten the social distance between you. And saying please serves to insert a kind of buffer or space that says, in effect, that we need some formality between us here.
Apologies for my slightly late response again, but I’m going to respond to things as I read, so…
That’s not what I said, though.
I didn’t say there’s no reason to study a language in school. What I said is that there’s no reason to be monolingual. Learning a language in a school setting isn’t the only way to learn (again, I speak three languages in my daily life alone, and learned NONE of those in school). Whether it is learning a language in school or simply being exposed to it and picking it up that way, I think everyone who has the ability to should know more than one language, for the exact reasons I stated in my initial reply, which I don’t think I need to type out twice.
Kids pick up language ridiculously fast; exposing younger children to languages even outside of an academic setting is bound to have an effect on them, which I also talked about here:
Just sitting in a classroom, they’re bound to pick something or the other up, and for some, that alone may be enough to develop a bit of an interest. They don’t need to be “forced” to learn; just to be present in that environment, as is the case with many subjects in schools, depending on where you went to school. In mine, for example, PE wasn’t graded, so many people slacked off and only did the bare minimum, while others were passionate, but everyone got something out of it. In the same way, since we’re talking about languages, my French classes in middle school weren’t graded, and as a result I was best in class as the most serious person about it (and almost the only one actually serious about it). Others still learned something or the other though, except the one classmate of mine who did everything she could to get out of class because… she didn’t want to be in any class, really. This was just the one teacher who was unassertive enough for her to get away with shit. But I digress. My point is, just being in the classroom when a language is being taught is enough for some of it to stick, no matter how little.
If I may share another personal anecdote: When I was younger and my parents both worked, we hired someone to look after my baby sister while they were at work. This lady spoke Punjabi, a language that none of us did. Hearing her speak in Punjabi, my sister picked it up as well. The human brain, especially the young brain with strong plasticity, is amazing! She was never formally taught Punjabi; it was her third language. And yet, just by hearing it spoken around her, she picked it up and learned to speak it. With obvious exceptions (there are people who never acquire language at all), the brain of a child is incredibly quick to grasp language and ways to communicate, and adapts to whatever languages are present around it.
With that said, I don’t think a single week in the school year is enough to foster an interest in them, or for anything to stick. Which is why, again, continued language classes are a better choice imo. I don’t know about you, but in my experience, short events like dedicated weeks for “unique” or unfamiliar topics tend to get even less interest from kids than otherwise, because they just see it as “this dumb thing my school is doing for a few days.” Obviously, this is just my own experience and does not apply everywhere. Some people may even say the opposite. Regardless, though, kids need to have enough resources over a long enough period of time to develop a genuine interest in something. There just aren’t enough language-learning resources outside of schools for a dedicated week to be enough, and with just one week, most kids won’t develop a lasting interest.
Respectfully, I disagree. While it’s certainly not impossible to learn about a culture without learning the language, many cultural concepts are untranslatable and/or are heavily linked to the language. Like I said above, language and culture are always heavily intertwined and can rarely be separated, if at all. Many times, attempting to translate these cultural concepts into another language leads to their significance being diminished and meaning lost, because all the weight carried by one word cannot be condensed to fit in one word in a different language, if that makes sense. Every language is unique; very rarely do 1:1 translations exist.
This is true, but simply telling someone about a concept and allowing them to experience it for themselves achieve two very different levels of understanding. These classes don’t necessarily have to be for several years; even one can be enough to develop an interest or realize you have none, but to have enough of an understanding of the fundamentals of the language and culture in question. Also, I will once again refer to my above sentiment of how something or the other will have to stick.
Can the same not be said about every other school subject? Your native language, math, science, history? These are all very big commitments and we often spend 9+ years studying them. Not everyone wants to do those, either. It doesn’t change that they’re necessary, though. I hated history class. I hated every moment of it, and I hated that it was mandatory. But objectively and looking back on it, my problems were with the way it was being taught, not that it was being taught at all. History is incredibly important to learn, and I’m glad I learned what I did, because it’s given me a very good understanding of why things are the way they are and allows me to think critically about the past and the present. I don’t think any school subject has been detrimental to me, regardless of how much I liked them or didn’t. Learning is always a good thing!
You can, yes, but I once again ask: how else do you want someone to truly understand what it’s like to speak a language that’s not your own? I’m not insisting people gain mastery in a foreign language, but just the fundamentals are enough.
Exactly my points. Different subjects are mandatory for a reason and just taking one year to gain a basic understanding of a language is enough.
Again, I’m going to have to disagree. Things like the quadratic formula aren’t taught so you have them memorized or because they’re going to come up every day. They’re taught to stimulate your brain and develop certain patterns of thinking, logical reasoning skills, and more depending on the branch of mathematics. They’re taught so you understand why to apply X line of thinking to a certain problem, why you’re solving it that way. Not just so that you have it memorized. While yes, there is a good amount of remembering to do with math and I disagree with the way some of it is handled in schools (for my A Level math exams, we actually got a formula sheet with some essential formulae because the focus was on knowing where to apply them, not just that they existed, and that was the trickier part), in the end, it’s taught so you learn how to think.
As someone who also had GCSEs and studied in the same education system as you (I assume), I honestly think that’s early enough. We choose our GCSE subjects at 13 (or at least, in my country we do). That’s extremely young to decide what to do with your entire life! I think children up to 12 should be getting the fundamentals of all subjects; again, to develop their critical thinking skills and give them a basic understanding of the world. There are some things I believe it’s absolutely necessary to know for most people, like the basic workings of the human body, why an apple falls down, why your country exists today, and how to judge the area of a space.
This I agree with…
… but this I don’t. I believe all skills are beneficial to have, regardless of how much you’ll use them.
[insert my above talk about language and culture]
May I ask how you would propose this be done?
If it’s not basic, then why do you speak English?
On a more serious note, though, I believe you’re conflating “basic” with “easy,” and the two are not the same at all. Language learning is a basic skill. I mentioned something to a similar effect above, but our brains (again, with obvious exceptions) are wired for language. As humans, we’re a social species, and spoken language is one of the biggest ways in which we communicate. Babies’ brains start adapting to language in the womb (correct me if I’m wrong), and they start speaking without ever formally being taught their first language. You don’t teach a baby what a noun or a verb or a preposition is, and yet, they start to use those as they listen to and interact with the world around them, developing their language skills as their brains develop. So yes, learning a language is very much a basic skill, even if it isn’t easy.
I’m not sure what else you want us to provide? I don’t have very much access to scholarly articles myself, but I’m sure others can quote some. I’m still not sure what you want us to be quoting articles like that on, though. Could you elaborate?
I want to touch on it for a second, though, and say that that’s no fault of the school system, and that pressure may have played more of a part in your disinterest.
No one is claiming anything about universal experiences. We’ve quite literally been saying over and over that these experiences are very much our own. Those experiences have then shaped our opinions, that’s all.
This is a sentiment I can agree with! I think there should always be a choice, but that comes down to resources. I was upset that my university didn’t offer Japanese as a subject while we had Mandarin, Korean, Hebrew, and a couple of others, but it really just came down to the fact that we didn’t have anyone who could teach Japanese. I ended up simply continuing my self-study, but it would have been nice for others, too, yknow?
I’m going to be honest, this alone tells me that you didn’t read or understand my points at all. And based on everything you’ve said, I feel like your responses embody what I’ve been saying about monolinguals and a lack of understanding of why other languages are important. Not that you’re doing it intentionally, as far as I’m aware, but I thought we talked about why learning languages is important, even outside of these situations that absolutely necessitate it. It can expand your worldview by a lot, it stimulates your brain and allows it to think in more ways, it can be a valuable insight into other cultures, and so on.
Honestly… yeah. I can definitely agree with this. All my problems are with modern education systems and I really don’t know how we’d implement it practically in these conditions, so I’m really only talking about the theoretical. While I still think it should be introduced in more places, even with our current system, I can’t in good faith say it would be as good of an initiative as I’d like it to be without an overhaul to the system itself.
Tbh I don’t trust governments to do anything /shot
As someone from a country where many (regional) languages are spoken, with an interest in/some knowledge of other countries that are the same, I’ve only seen governments try to snuff out other languages (including my own, so I am definitely biased) and establish a single one to be spoken by all, which… is exactly the source of many of my issues with monolinguals.
Obviously it’s not impossible? I just don’t trust current governments to take these initiatives. But again, we are only speaking in theoretical terms.
I completely agree with this!! This is what I was starting to say above before I saw you say this and it’s basically everything I wanted to say too, so yeah. Cultural monolingualism (term I just made up) is a plague and serves no purpose but to speak over oppressed groups and shrink them until they no longer exist. Until everyone is the same, a monolith where there’s no room for differences.
Like I’ve said over and over, language and culture are essentially one and the same, and our languages make us who we are. It’s extremely important to listen to groups other than your own, and that should be done by listening to them in their own language, rather than forcing them to speak yours or speaking over them in terms you understand. Only that way can they truly express themselves, with all the background and personality and information in general that would be lost if they had to translate themselves and be more easily understood by others. Without having to speak in concepts that may not even be accurate to what they’re trying to convey, solely because those concepts don’t exist in the target language.
When colonizers force their language on the colonized, they are taking away so much more than just their language. So much of history and tradition is lost just by forcing them to speak a language that isn’t their own, in which their stories and history don’t exist, and into which translating those things is either impossible or deemed worthless. Their cultural identity as a whole is lost or at the very least changed to better suit those outsiders’ tastes, just because they deem themselves Superior.
You’re… definitely right about this. There are always going to be people like that, too, and it’s not something easily remedied? I have absolutely no idea how anyone would go about… educating those people or changing their ways, and I doubt it’s possible at all.
usted آپ (approximation bc the relevant language keyboard doesn’t exist) تساں
Being superior forms of address that give people the respect they should be addressed with
Me neither :')
I talked about this above, but kids are remarkably quick to pick up languages, and just sitting in a classroom where a lanuage is being taught is bound to make something, even if it’s just a few words or concepts, stick in their minds. And honestly, I think even that is enough to start.
100% agree with this
I’m sorry but I don’t understand how it’s elitist and gatekeep-y to want someone to understand a concept better, the way it actually exists, rather than as a watered down translation that doesn’t accurately capture the original meaning at all? Could you elaborate on how you mean?
No one has said you can’t? You can like living in a country without knowing a single word of the language. I know people in the US who don’t speak a word of English, and they get by, even if they struggle outside of circles where people speak their language. They’re okay just speaking their own languages, but it doesn’t change that they would benefit from learning English, even if I don’t necessarily believe they need to learn English in particular. (also, I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you’re “flipping” here… could you please explain?)
I’m sorry but I don’t think this maps 1:1, you cannot make decisions for everyone based on the circumstances of a few. It certainly was ableist that you were forced to do higher level mathematics despite having been diagnosed since you were young, but that absolutely doesn’t mean that having compulsory math in schools is ableist. For most, it’s a necessary skill, and even if you disagree, it does teach those logical reasoning skills. I believe there should be accommodations in place for those who are not able to do certain things rather than making them optional entirely.
If you weren’t able to do math, you should have been allowed to just not do it. That shouldn’t affect its status as a compulsory subject for those without your struggles. Honestly, again, by your logic, no school subject, or even school as a whole, should be mandatory to attend. That just doesn’t make sense to me. In many countries, attending primary school at the very least is mandatory, and those laws exist for a reason. Things shouldn’t be made optional just because people don’t want to do them, but there do need to be accommodations in place for those who aren’t able to because of various conditions affecting that ability. I don’t think we should be conflating those two concepts.
Yeah exactly, that wasn’t really what was being discussed at all. I realize that I mentioned it once in my first reply to this topic, but it very much was not a core feature of my argument and instead was just something I brought up as a supporting point to my main ones. My point when mentioning this wasn’t even about the intricacies of the language; what I said was:
And as you can see, I was focusing on accents and idiosyncrasies more than vocabulary.
Exactly!
This! Translating something from one language to another is so much more than simply translating the words as they are, and context and cultural knowledge are so important, because in most cases, translating things literally, word for word, is going to end up horribly inaccurate. I agree with Eleanor’s earlier point of translation technology being better and more accessible to use with simple everyday speech in a foreign country for example, but I don’t think it can ever replace translations done with care for literary works, longer talks, etc. Translations have to be done with an understanding of the culture and context, and with enough care to convey those well so that they’re not misunderstood in the target language. If this isn’t achievable through the words themselves, then they should be explained through notes, at the very least. Regardless, this is not something a machine can achieve, and it’s why we need to strive to understand things as they were intended in their original language and context, even if not by actually speaking the language.
Exactly! Even if you don’t realize it, even English is heavily rooted in cultural norms and etiquette. These features don’t always exist in other languages, but can tell you a lot about those that they do exist in.
I apologize for how long this has gotten, but I do agree with everything else @katabasis has said, too.
All of this!! The way the brain works to adapt to language is so important to understanding humanity. We’ve also seen cases of people being deprived of language and they have never to this day been able to recover. (See Genie: the Wild Child). The brain is built for language. While it takes a long time, babies naturally adapt to learn languages. There is something called the “universal phonetician” where babies for a window of time are able to pronounce any sound of any language. This doesn’t seem so interesting until your realize that a native english speaker cannot pronounce a few sounds found in indigenous american languages, it’s just impossible. That’s also why I’m a strong advocate for language learning young, the advantages of youth in language learning is amazing and it continues to degrade over time. People can still learn languages in adulthood, just by hearing, learning, etc. etc. but it’s harder. Children who learn multiple languages are also more talented in their native language, they learn language nuances, are more aware of culture and translation. It reduces dementia, (there have been people with alzheimers who are still able to speak languages they’ve learned years ago even when they’ve forgotten and there are people who’s language learning has helped prevent against memory loss). Bilinguals have better task-switching and attention capabilities, more diplomatic, they also have better command over language. People often blurt things out or say things they don’t quite mean, can’t get their concepts across etc. etc. Multilingual people tend to have greater command over their languages as they’re more aware, it’s an awareness thing.
cough Birth of White America cough
why White Americans identify strongly with regional areas, football teams and racist groups because the formation of white supremacy required the destruction of unique ethnic groups so now white americans attempt to cling onto a sense of group identity or rediscover their own (why dna test are popular among them) which they’ve lost. this is why whiteness keeps expanding. (also because race is subjective and race science is NOT REAL!) we see this of the inclusion of japanese people in south africa’s apartheid under the white category but under non-white in the US during the same time. the exclusion then inclusion of jewish and italian people.
now don’t come and be like “but italian-americans” i’m not talking about immigrant groups, i’m talking about a specific subset of white americans that lack any ethnic group identification.
Exactly!! A few years ago I went down a research rabbit hole reading about children who had never been exposed to language as babies and children and completely failed to pick it up later on as a result (not to mention all the other typically “human” traits they lacked). Language learning is something we do together because it’s how we as a species communicate. The reason those people weren’t able to develop language skills isn’t because it isn’t a necessary part of the brain, but because their brains in particular lost the need for it. The brain needs training like any other part of our bodies, and a lack of use will cause it to wear out and fail. Those parts of their brain weren’t used, and so they lost the ability to function at a reasonable level at all.
This is also really interesting to me as far as hearing goes, because studies have shown the same applies - for example, Japanese babies could tell the difference between “L” and “R” sounds, but after reaching a few years of age and being exposed only to the Japanese language, they could no longer hear the difference between those two phonemes. Their brains had adapted to their language, where there isn’t a distinction, and now with no need to tell those two apart, they were completely unable to.
Also strongly agree with everything else you said there
Oh this is so interesting actually
Yeah? Yeah
I have a lot of thoughts about that tbh, because there’s really no way to draw a neat line between groups, and why trying to do that ties into white supremacy again, but… that’s not all relevant to this thread kfdbgkvd
you can learn about a culture, words that a culture uses and get a base level understanding of the culture without learning and studying the language by itself. If you choose to learn more than that basic understanding that’s rad!
It’s been so many years and I still struggle to speak comfortably, and I have to speak for a good moment before I can become more fluid in it. I cannot switch insantly into it like some others, I have to slowly exit out of English. But the goal isn’t really perfecrtion, it’s communication. I’m trying to communicate with others and across cultures.
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