🔭 Black Holes - Quantum Mechanics or General Relativity? 🔭

Within the realm of astrophysics, black holes are easily one of my favourite subjects for the intriguing way such matter can present itself, condensing enough to tear into spacetime. It’s a point of fascination with the novel rules that we already know and the boundless discoveries still to be uncovered ahead.

So, that brings me to my question:

Are black holes part of quantum mechanics or general relativity?

Both methods have fundamentally different precepts, general relativity being based on Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics delving into subatomic particles, but the bottom line is that they dissent. The biggest example is how quantum mechanics argues that matter cannot be created or destroyed while general relativity points toward the black hole retaining all its information.

Now, I know that there are theories that find ways to implement both methods, but even those are inadequate. Hawking Radiation is a good example of that, detailing how black holes can leak information over time. However, we still don’t know what happens when all the information leaves or about the anti-matter that splits from its counterparts over the event horizon. After all, theories aren’t fully proven, just generally accepted (think the big bang theory).

A secondary question that could be examined is if general relativity and quantum mechanics can even be melded together, or have a consistent rule that translates to both approaches.


Not so brief background on Black Holes >>

Some massive stars collapse on themselves at the end of their ‘lives’ to a superdense, small body that has a gravitational pull so powerful, it tears into space-time and traps light. There are two main types of black holes, stellar and supermassive. As their names suggest, they depend on size.

Stellar black holes - You pass the Roche limit before the event horizon. You’re ripped to shreds and stretched out before the point of no return. Naturally, you’ll be dead, so there is no point in flying into that.

Supermassive black holes - The event horizon is before the Roche limit, meaning you’ll be able to see the inside of the black hole before being spaghettified. However, since you pass the event horizon, the only way is down, and there is no escape. You’ll still die, but it will be cool.

2019 Image

Black Hole Image Makes History; NASA Telescopes Coordinate Observation |  NASA

Artistic Interpetation (with accuracy)

Congratulations, You Survived Black Hole Week - The New York Times

Note: This is much like the images in the movie Interstellar. I suggest you watch that if you are a fan of astronomy. They practically predicted the way black holes looked in 2014, and that was five years prior.

But wait, why are those images so weird? It looks the black hole has rings.

Sorta. They are accretion discs which are formed by diffuse material that orbits the black hole. Saturn has rings, think of it like that.

So are the rings all around?

No, but it is the gravitational lensing you are observing. At a black hole, the way light reaches your eyes is so distorted, that the back end of the accretion disc is being shown from the top and bottom side. Sometimes these images are circular, sometimes near elliptical, or arranged in an Einstein cross.

Another example of Gravitational Lensing

Gravitational lens - Wikipedia

Note: That is one galaxy behind the star, however it’s image is stretched to a near circle showing that it’s almost directly behind.

The closer you get the black hole, the stronger the pull, the stronger the warping. Since space and time are proportional, the faster you go, the slower time flows. Once you reach light speed past the event horizon, time would essentially slow to near stopping moments while the rest of the galaxy revolves fast-forwarded. The pull of the black hole draws you in, but it could also be said that you are in place while the black hole accelerates forwards depending on the frame of reference. Therefore, gravity is just the acceleration of space or the slowing of time.

In conclusion: Don’t go into a black hole. You’ll die : )


And yay, we’re all caught up. Black holes are cool, I agree. Lovely. The problem is, most of the concepts I used in the description apply to general relativity. Once you enter the black hole, every direction is down, and that would suggest that objects at the singularity are essentially gone or taken from the universe. Going back to quantum mechanics, they say that nothing can be destroyed. Hawking radiation is but one example of a method to bridge this gap, but even that isn’t perfect.

Does anyone feel like making a few new theories? Because I would really love to know if there was a constant rule that could be applicable everywhere.


Other Questions

:gem: Why is gravity so weird? - We know that it’s the warping of spacetime, but it’s a force trillions of times weaker than electromagnetism, strong force, and weak force. Especially near a black hole, in the extremes, general relativity tends to fall apart.

:gem: Why does time only flow in one direction? - Whether you’re stuck at online school watching the clock tick by or hanging at the edge of a black hole watching the years of the galaxy pass in mere moments, time only allows us to go forwards. Spacetime is supposed to be this conceptual fourth dimension, linked together, only except we can only move around in space, never time. (Yes, I know entropy exists, but try solving that one)

And probably the most popular one ~

:gem: What’s up with quantum gravity? - The supposed field that is supposed to be the mesh of quantum mechanics and general relativity. It’s gonna explain how black holes work, the vacuum catastrophe, and the chronology projection conjecture, but the catch is that no one apprehends anything about it. Who knows, could be something discovered in our lifetime.


@HomeworkHelp and @Scientists if anyone here can help, fact check, or just share other cool experiences. I am writing a report on this for finals, so any contributions are awesome.

7 Likes

@HomeworkHelp and even @Discussions, this is great little info drop. Loved reading this, so informative.

3 Likes

Hang on. I’ll go conduct a seèance and contact Dr. Hawking…

1 Like

Invite me. I have a lot more questions than the ones stated above ~

1 Like

I’m sure you do…I want to know how he lived so long with ALS…I’ll let you know once I find candles. Hopefully I don’t burn the house down…

1 Like

I’ve always thought maybe why we can’t see gravity and such forces we can’t explain through scientific theories instead of just through law. I heard cats can see more dimensions than we can. What is gravity is a form of dimension that only someone with greater eye can see?

2 Likes

I’ve seen videos showing space and gravity as grids that with gravity pull down the grids, sort of bends it. More possible evidence it’s a dimension and the reason why we don’t understand it.

2 Likes

And when we talk about this topic of quantum mechanics and other genres about it it’s theory is that any matter is matter everywhere all at the same time until studied under the eye, meaning it appears where it wants to be seen.

I’ve heard others think that could be a sign of a god or higher being which I don’t think is wrong to believe. There was a study done to try and experiment this theory (don’t remember exactly how it was done) that actually proved this point. If you look it up on YouTube the video should be there. I think they ended finding errors in it though but even then it’s still a question to ask and I find it pretty interesting.

1 Like

Also at the question of time flowing in one direction.

I think it seems like the only way to travel through time at a faster pace than the neutral state of flow is traveling at the speed of light right? More random I think but have you ever thought about how dead stars that’s light went out still appear to be shining on earth? It’s because it’s light is still traveling through time. If you were to travel at the speed of light closer and closer to the star itself, don’t you think it would be possible to watch it’s evolution or it’s phase on replay, even though it’s already went through the process? Idk, just a question.

1 Like

Okay, this is new. I’ve never heard of this, but I have also never had pets. When you say more dimensions, is this suppose to relate to something beyond three dimensions? I know that there are many inquires about the nature of cats seemingly appearing and disappearing, potentially having pocket gateways. Also, the occurrence with some animals yelling or barking, chasing invisible things in the air.

To me, it just seems that these creatures just operate on a whole different standard than us. Cats can see more than we do (200 degrees in peripheral compared to our less than 180), they are nearsighted and see in mostly blueish colours. Living a life like that will have different outcomes. They can also pick on hues beyond the human visible spectrum.

After a brief look into a few old blogs, it seems that these pets are just being pets. There was a popular page in 2004 that discussed this initially as a joke, but it caught on the comments brought up moments like this. Terms like ‘glitchy’ were creatures to try to understand how cats seemed to end up everything. Nothing scientific was tested on its regard. You get other news sites like this that do a good job of compiling stories, but they are just that, just stories.

There were speculations dealing with explaining how gravity was so weak yet influential. As I mentioned in the initial post, three other forces are significantly stronger. Electromagnetism is the force that holds atoms together; strong force holds the nucleus together, the weak force causes atoms to decay, gravity keeps celestial bodies together.

The problem is if gravity is so weak, how is it holding everything together? Or, where is it all going? Theories on this part have mostly been about little dimensions for all the force to escape to.

String theory is one of those developing discussions. The crash course is that other dimension can exist, somewhere up to ten in total, but they are bunched up into tiny spaces. In that regard, gravity could be ‘leaking’ out into those dimensions.

(And if you have time for reading into the Higgs boson, it will help explain how elementary particles get their rest mass form. Scientists took those rest forms, tested the bonds, and discovered that gravity was a significantly weaker force that way.)

(Check out the Hierarchy Problem for the exact detailing on how the scientists figured it out.)

The biggest problem I see with these grids is the fact that they only represent two-dimensional space. It’s easy to make a flat plain, drop some drawing of planets and say that the grid stretches, and for primary school students, maybe that works. However, in a real-world application, we live in a three-dimensional world. When a planet sinks into the fabric of a two-dimensional grid, where does it ‘sink’ in a 3D view?

Rather it is the spacetime that sinks into the planet. All the areas around the planet will bend inward showing the forces. This video is my favourite for a visualizer. They not only acknowledge the flaws of the original model but also attempt to explain how the time fits in. They also explain how often people use gravity to explain other gravitational forces without understanding spacetime.

That’s kinda the basics of quantum mechanics. A good example is the electron field. Atoms are separated into subatomic particles and usually have inaccurate diagrams that look like this:
Atoms to Molecules ( Read ) | Earth Science | Atom diagram, Science  chemistry, Physical science

Honestly, this is rubbish that schools still teach this or that we still see something like this. The most recent model was proposed in 1926, that’s nearly a century ago and children are still learning Bohr models. Anyways, I’ll leave all the fancy orbital content for a separate discussion and skip to the placement of the electrons.

The smallest subatomic particle is the electron, being significantly smaller to the neutron and proton that its mass is generally negated. (Note that quantum mechanics also talks about quarks and strings within the nucleus, but that does get into Higgs boson).

Dispatches From Turtle Island: An Atom Drawn To Scale

This is a better model. Electrons hover around in a field of probability around the centre. They can appear to be in two places at once because of how fast they travel, and that could be what you mean by saying that ‘matter is everywhere all at the same time.’ The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle goes further to explain that the more you know about the position of the electron, the less you know about its energy.

I’m a strong believer that we’ll be able to find out once we create an AI that can fully simulate the human mind. We can see what happens once we run through scenarios of death. Until then, I’m sure that once those synapses stop firing, that person is considered dead.

Yeah, I’m not quite sure what the neutral state of flow is, but the speed of light is the fastest observable speed of our known universe.

The light isn’t travelling through time, more like just taking a while to reach us. Since light has a capacity at 300 million metres a second, what we can see does have a limit. It’s not noticeable on Earth because we all live so close to each other. Once the light reflects off the object we see, it hits our eyes practically instantons. This will not work for long distances and space is really vast. One light-year is the measurement term for the distance light can travel in a year. If a celestial body is one light year away from us, the light we see from a telescope would be from last year.

An easier example is the sun. That giant ball of imploding hydrogen and helium is about eight light minutes away. When we look at the sun (but don’t actually do this), we are seeing it as it looked eight minutes ago. If the sun decided to explode all of a sudden, it would take eight minutes for the light to die here too.

Same thing with distant stars. The close galaxy is the Andromeda galaxy, 2.5 million light-years away. We are getting the light from that 2.5 million years ago. That’s about when the first species of humanoids started evolving and when glacial periods started. Light from all the way back then, taking this long to reach us.

So yes, maybe a star has died in the sky somewhere, but we won’t know until the light travels all the way back to us.

No, we couldn’t be able to see what has already happened. That’s the problem with how time works. If we were travelling near the speed of light toward that star, the light would take a shorter time to hit our eyes, so we’ll get a more and more recent image of it. On the flip side, the faster you go through space, the slower you go through time. At near light speed, time is practically stopped. You’re no longer tangibly ageing while everything around you continues to move.

We could be able to see the timelapse of that star as it continued forward in time, but could never see what had already happened.

Interesting. :thinking:

1 Like

Which part?

All of it. All of your responses gave me more insight.

1 Like

Ah, I though your earlier statement was about something confusing. Well then, it was a fun discussion ~

They can sense spirits too, as can other animals.

1 Like

When you say other animals, does that include humans as well?

1 Like

Yes, but I was referring more to dogs and cats. They’re more in tuned than we are. I have seen something that we believe is paranormal…want to see?

1 Like

Sure, I’m just wondering if there is a scientific study on this, or some sort of reference article I could run through in my spare time. A lot of this is just kinda new to me

1 Like

I’m not sure.

1 Like